keeping a watchful eye on the wolves

Todd Bentley and Contemplative Meditation

Has anyone ever heard of Todd Bentley’s strange vision? You can read about it here:

THE GLORY CLOUD OF REVELATION & PROPHETIC MANTLES – PART 2: CONCLUSION BY TODD BENTLEY, FRESH FIRE MINISTRIES
http://www.freshfire.ca/teaching_details.php?Id=143

***NOTE: as of May 18, 2008, this link has been changed. This page can now be found here:

http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=143&pid=954

This is what he saw:
“…in a vision, the Glory Cloud of Revelation descending upon the church. It was also during this time of prayer that God took me in a vision to what I believed to be the Himalayan Mountains. I saw an Indian man with a turban on his head and heard the whisper of the Spirit say, “This is Sundar Singh. I am releasing anointing of revelation like this.” I had no communication with this old saint, nor did he say anything to me. The experience lasted only a moment….”

And this is the revelation he learned from the man with a turban:

THE CHRISTIAN CONTEMPLATIVE TRADITION (LECTIO DIVINA)

Sundar Singh spent at least two hours daily in reading the Scriptures, meditation and prayer. He would arise at 5:00 am and finish by 7:00 or 8:00 depending on what his schedule was for the day. He often spent the whole day or night in prayer. His discipline was to read one chapter of the Bible, rapidly at first reading, then to return to reread passages or verses that were more suggestive to him. These he would linger with and meditate on for as long as it was fruitful for him to do so. Next, he would enter into a period of “recollection” for twenty minutes or so. This was a time of silence, in which he would allow the Lord to speak to him in some way. With his own mind and heart quieted, he opened his mind and his heart to hear what the Lord would have to say to him or just simply enjoy companionship with his Lord. Often this period of silence would extend into a deeper state called “contemplation” in which he enjoyed complete rest and refreshment in the love of God.

Often during times of contemplation, he entered into experiences of ecstasy. He regarded these experiences as the same as St. Paul’s entrance into the “third heaven”. During his latter years, they occurred frequently, as often as ten times a month. About these experiences he said, “I never try to go into ecstasy; nor do I advise others to try. It is a gift to be accepted, but it should not be sought; if given, it is a pearl of great price.”

Anyone who contemplates the heavenly calling of the apostle Paul and his being caught up into the third heaven, and again into Paradise, will lift up his voice to God and say: Glory to God who surely gives great gifts to men!

THE FOUR R’s OF THE CHRISTIAN DEVOTIONAL LIFE

This key is one of the most important tools if we are to see an increase of wisdom and revelation in our lives. In the western Christian tradition, meditation refers to thinking about or the use of the imagination around a passage of scripture, whereas, in India, traditional meditation refers to silencing one’s thoughts. The Christian tradition practices the silencing of thoughts and emotions, but it is called “contemplation” rather than “meditation”. This is one of those unfortunate twists of semantics, which has caused confusion when discussing the spirituality of East and West.

Sundar Singh practiced a sequence of prayer discipline that is identical to ancient Christian monastic disciplines: reading the scriptures, meditation on a passage of the reading (also called response of the mind and heart), recollection, and rest. This sequence is also called lectio divina in Latin. It means divine reading, or more precisely, divine listening, since few people in that day could actually read.

Why would God give his children a vision of a contemplative who combined the East and West in his meditative disciplines? Is this where Todd Bentley’s ideas about visions, spirituality, and ‘soaking’ prayer are coming from?
There is a Todd Bently resource called Developing Your Seer Gift – CD that can be purchased here:
http://shop.newdayinternational.org/customer/product.php?productid=435

According to the description at the above link, some of the ways in which Todd Bentley teaches to develop your seer gift is by Activating Your Spiritual Senses and by opening Spiritual Gates, Doors and Portals:

There are over eight ways that Todd will outline in this teaching that will help you position yourself for God to open the eyes of your heart, such as: overcoming fear of the unknown, meditating in your heart and being still, soaking and contemplative prayer, and meditating on God’s Word.

…Todd will give clarification, both through the Word of God and by sharing amazing personal experiences, how spiritual gates, doors and portals trigger supernatural encounters with God. Using Jacob’s life as an example, Todd will teach you how to position yourself for a holy visitation from God.

The Bible warns us about spiritual realms and principalities. Rather than teaching about contemplative spirituality and opening the gates to the dangers of the supernatural, a real shepherd would be more concerned about laying down his life to protect his sheep.

Watch out sheep. When you see wolf tracks like this, run to the real Shepherd.

———-

**********Note: Update: It appears Freshfire has been playing hide and seek with this page on their website. However, you can find something similar at the Elijah List here (it is a little bit different):

http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word_pf.html?ID=1400

58 responses

  1. Pingback: From the Lighthouse

  2. Sherri Knapp

    I watched Todd Bentley the other night, and this laughter that came from him, sounded like it was mocking the Lord, it was so bad, I had to take my earphones off. I noticed that he didn’t call people up to the stage that were in wheel chairs, or had obvious diseases. Some on said that they charged money to get in, plus took 3 offerings.

    People from every different nation were there in Lakeland Florida
    He never reads scripture , or has a Bible with him.

    This is part of the Last Days Deception. And preparing people for the anti-christ, that will do many signs and wonders. I Praise and Thank the Lord for giving me discernment in these last days.

    April 28, 2008 at 11:53 am

  3. Sherri Knapp

    I feel that we should pray for Todd Bentley for his salvation,and to start preaching the Truth of the Gospel, Repentance!

    April 28, 2008 at 12:01 pm

  4. Ernie Lofthouse

    I watch with great saddness the deceivers at work today in the church. What is even more distressing is the evangelicals that are listening and following, Especially those who are supposed to be pastors and leaders. I think of Rick Warren and his spreading of apostasy among pastors who are falling under his spell. Our Lord warned of these days very clearly along with the apostles. That there would be a great falling away before the end! So many are not heeding this warning. But for me this is one of the great signs of his coming and looking at this world all i can cry is Lord come soon!

    April 28, 2008 at 4:57 pm

  5. marycontrary

    For those who are so into meditation as a way to connect with God, hasn’t it ever dawned on them that they are simply practicing self-hypnosis and putting themselves farther into their subconscious mind where they experience hallucinations? They think they are developing a relationship with God, when they are only moving out of their conscious mind and into their subconscious. How sad when they could have a real relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

    April 28, 2008 at 8:02 pm

  6. Christina M.

    I don’t understand what you are all so frightened of. I have listened to several of his sermons and he has preached that Christ died for our sins and he rose again. Didn’t St. Paul say that as long as people are preaching salvation through Christ crucified that we should be giving thanks? You can argue that he is imbalanced in his emphasis or confused, but he is not preaching some alternative gospel. As far as meditation goes: “meditate” simply means “to deeply focus one’s mind”. It is not some inherently evil thing. Rather, we should sit and contemplate God and focus on Him. And Marycontrary, I don’t think the people who listen to Todd Bentley think that a real relationship is only through moving into the subconcious. I have no idea where you got that idea, other than perhaps you have a different understanding of mediation than my dictionary and I have.

    April 30, 2008 at 6:50 pm

  7. Andrew

    His laughter is not “Mocking God” have you ever even listened to Todd Bentley? I know it is scary that he is passionate and has tattoo’s and piercings to some. Todd advocates praising God for breakthroughs and counting the cost to follow jesus. If you don’t believe in the supernatural, you might have to throw out your bible as well. anywho.

    May 1, 2008 at 2:27 am

  8. sheepyweepy

    Christina,

    What about the servant girl with the spirit of divination in Acts 16 who followed Paul for many days and cried out, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.”

    Why listen to an imbalanced or confused messenger that might preach some truth? God said we can know the truth and that we are to test everything and hold to correct doctrine.

    “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.” 1 Tim 4:16

    As for meditation, it is actually the opposite of focusing your mind. Here is the definition of Contemplative Meditation:

    As it is expressed in a modern day movement is mystically (i.e. based on a technique or method) in which one empties the mind of thought through repetition, usually of a word or phrase or focus on the breath. In this case the silence would be an absence of thought, all thought.

    http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/cp.htm

    Andrew,

    No where in the Bible are we taught to be drunk and laugh and shake uncontrollably in “the spirit,” rather, we are to walk in the Spirit, and die to the flesh.

    We praise God because of who He is – Mighty and Holy and worthy to be praised, not for some “I want IT” me, me, me “breakthrough,” or some unbiblical ‘open portal’ teaching.

    Regarding our supernatural Holy God, we have to be careful to examine whether we are serving Him regardless of what we experience, or whether we are seeking after signs, supernatural experiences, the ‘presence,’ the electricity, the manifestations, the angels, the mantles, the visions, the visitations, the impartations, etc.

    We must be very careful, even more so as the day of the Lord approaches. We CANNOT trust our feelings or our eyes. Why is the Bible full of warnings about wolves and hirelings entering in? Jesus warned that there would be MANY false teachers. They will appear to be sheep when they are in fact wolves (Matthew 7:15-17). There is only one way to see beyond the sheep’s clothing, and that is by measuring what they say, teach (and practice) with God’s Word.

    May 3, 2008 at 9:09 pm

  9. Ali

    In Acts there is the account of Simon who wanted to purchase Paul’s power. It seems to met hat these preachers are trying to ‘purchase’ God’s power,and people will pay anything to be healed. It is not something that can be bought or sold, but like salvation, is a FREE gift from God. Al it requires is our Faith

    May 4, 2008 at 8:41 am

  10. Pingback: Todd Bentley’s Divine Silence « Wolf Tracks

  11. michael sibinil

    Evangelicals like Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Kathryn Khulman, Billy Graham lack scriptural upbringing and the genuine indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God. The “small” miracles that they purportedly “do” are no evidence of the gifts of healing and more so wrt to the SIT phenomenon. I am a rebaptised Born Again follower of Jesus Christ and, unlike most Baptists, I am a strong proponent of the Ministry of Healing of Jesus Christ. I do not believe that this ministry has died together with the death of John the Divine. I am a Pentecostal Baptist, but a “Berean” Christian first who is an ex-papist. People like Todd, Hinn, Graham, etc…., as they aged, the reality of their unsaved conditions manifest on their own. Pray for their salvation…., perchance…, their names have already been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. There are millions of Asians who have become “victims” of the likes of Hinn, Todd and Khulman. In these last days….., it takes a real man of God to discern the wheat from the chaff (weed). Pray first for the spirit of discernment. Apart from Todd Bentley….,there is also Mr. Warren who has many following in the Baptists circle of churches. What next?? God help us all…. Amen.

    May 6, 2008 at 12:57 pm

  12. Jo

    All I can say about what started in Lakeland and is now breaking out all over the world is,”His ways are not our ways… we can’t even imagine the thins He has prepared for us.” YOU look up the Scriptures.

    May 13, 2008 at 3:43 pm

  13. Seeker-of-Truth

    Todd Bentley is involved in the occult and his ministry is steeped in mysticism, gnosticism and the occult. If you really want the truth read the following article-it is long but well worth the read.

    http://www.deceptionbytes.com/Todd-Bentleys-Fire-of-Kundalini

    May 16, 2008 at 4:12 am

  14. sheepyweepy

    Good link. Thanks.

    May 16, 2008 at 6:02 am

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  16. you all missed it!

    Just the little bit you quoted here sounds find for those who want to press in for more from God.

    how silly you are!

    love,
    nada

    May 20, 2008 at 2:36 pm

  17. sheepyweepy

    ladynada,

    Not sure whether you are talking about “pressing in” to the Holy Spirit of God, or delving into mysticism and the ‘wisdom’ of goddess Sophia.

    ~not a silly sheep

    May 20, 2008 at 5:24 pm

  18. Pingback: LECTIO DIVINA - Leading Sheep to a New Level of Consciousness « Wolf Tracks

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  21. Stephen

    I have posted comments on here several times, on a previous entry. I will no longer be doing so because I am convinced that very few people here are looking for the truth. Rather, most people on here (not all) are simply distorting scriptures in order to prop up their own personal doctrines, without consideration of one another’s experiences. I’m gonna break this down parable style.

    This discussion is like two men talking about their cars. One man says, “my car will go 100 mph.” The other man, who drives the SAME car says, “that is impossible, I have a car and I have never exceeded 60 mph. “The first man replies, “well, try pushing down harder on the gas pedal, that should work.” The first man says, “that is impossible, I have never experienced such a thing,” and therefore presumes that the other man has had a false experience. “…the kingdom of heaven suffers violence (is forcibly entered) and the violent men take it by force (seize it for themselves).” This to me defines Todd Bentley – a man who will settle for nothing less the the Kingdom of heaven here on earth NOW. The Lord’s prayer says, “Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on EARTH as it is in HEAVEN.” This is a NOW prayer. The way I see Todd’s ministry is this: He is standing up and saying, “sickness is not in heaven. I will not rest until I pull down the will of the Father into this earth, into this man or woman’s body, into this families situation. God we must have Your kingdom manifest now – people are dying without Your touch. Please Lord come. I will be your vessel – use me no matter what it looks like. Whether I be looked at like John the baptist – in the wilderness, wearing animal skins and eating locusts or whether I am looked at like Jesus, dining with sinners, God, it doesn’t matter – USE ME to prepare the way for the second coming of Your Son” reference Matt 11:1-19.

    Sheepyweepy, I do not mean disrespect to you personally, but I see too many people who are spending more time policing the church and monitoring this evangelist, or that prophet. People like Hanagraff who make a living writing bad things about ministers who have spent years on their knees and in the Word of God so that the masses can have access to the things God has revealed to them. This blog is less about warning the Church of wolves than it is standing up for your own personal beliefs in order to justify your fear of God moving in a way that is unfamiliar to you.

    God revealed something to me as I was reading these posts…He, nor His servants, need my defense. If God be for us, who can be against us? Touch not my anointed, 1 chron 16:22. Be careful who you call false. We better be extremely POSITIVE they are false, beyond our experiences, if we are to say this. Church of Oprah – that is false – I’ll say it loud and proud. Ultimately as we have seen time and time again, God is not shy about pruning the branches. If a teacher or a prophet gets out of line, God is big enough to handle it. He doesn’t need blogs like this nor a book by some fancy seminary professor to justify, defend or critique the work of His servants. They answer to Him and Him alone and will be accountable for every action and misleading word they speak if they do not repent.

    So, I encourage all of you who believe in the ministry God has given to Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, Kuhlman or any other brave person who has had the “spiritual balls” to step out in faith to leave the bickering behind. Don’t let this poison into your system and seek God for greater blessings that He may be glorified and the works of the Enemy, including division amongst the Church, will be shattered. Amen.

    June 4, 2008 at 10:32 pm

  22. sheepyweepy

    Thank you for your comment.

    This blog has nothing to do with a personal fear of God moving in an unfamiliar way. True, God does not need us to do anything for Him, but he does ask us to be faithful.

    I encourage all to read this:

    ‘Defining the Believers Biblical Call to Judge’
    by Bob DeWaay

    http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue94.htm

    And this:

    ‘What is Heresy and what is a Heresy Hunter?’
    by Mike Oppenheimer

    http://www.letusreason.org/Pent38.htm

    June 4, 2008 at 11:00 pm

  23. Stephen

    One more thing. We should all ask ourselves regarding what we believe…not about healing alone, but about God. What we believe about God, as a Father, husband, friend, potter, master, defines how we will relate to Him (read knowledge of the Holy).

    So, the question is: Are our beliefs about God based on our experiences or what the Bible says about Him?

    Often times we will form a belief based on our experience and then we will find scriptures to back it up. It is human nature, nothing to be ashamed about, but something we all need to be aware of.

    Instead, we should be looking in the scriptures to define what our experience should be and then praying that God would renew our minds to what He says in the Word and, ultimately, change our experiences. God bless.

    June 6, 2008 at 3:32 pm

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  26. Mary

    You all are throwing out many thoughts to take seriously; to consider in testing the spirits:
    trickery or are they Holy Spirit Witness with each of us! We should be taking serious notes because we are hearing about being in end times. I really like the caution against believing so much without really checking the Scriptures. Does sound like preparation and conditioning before the Great Deciever, & Lier raises his voice with all his wonderful, and safety promises. May the Love of God, the Grace of our Jesus Christ and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with us, now and forever. mjc

    June 24, 2008 at 2:16 am

  27. Nick

    Here’s a book for you all to read if you haven’t already. I especially invite Stephen to read this. “Running Against the Wind” by Brian Flynn. The last two pages had me in tears and prayers for this man of God. His testimony (Not just research.) is moving and speaks to God’s Love. Contemplative Spirituality as outlined by Emergent leaders is best described by a speaker I once heard say concerning Mormons, but fits this movement. “We are using the same words but different dictionaries.” Comments by these leaders (and their numbers grow daily) when looked at closely reflect almost a need to have a face to face with God. The bible doesn’t seem to provide enough for them. Almost, as if they tell themselves that if they can make their way to God that He will tell them something that is not in the Bible. As if God left something out and wants man to come to Him for the answer, or man failed to include something that should have been included thereby diminishing the Bible’s worth. I’m of the belief that God, if He had wanted us to have a special knowledge He would have included it in scripture. I especially enjoy the end of John 21:25 “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written”. To me that’s a “Wow” (I use wow when words can’t express my joy, my wonder, my love of my Lord Jesus). It does have my curiosity going. Like what things? What other things happened that I would like to know? Hey, I only want to know so I can do more for you!!! How easy to slip in a desire that “we” I emphasize “we” feel is worth it, so anything goes. Has anyone else noticed that when spirituality in the Emergent, Contemplative Prayer, is discussed that they talk of God and make Jesus as an after thought? Or I’ll talk Jesus in the beginning then we’ll talk directly to God. When Stephen was stoned he said “…Lord Jesus receive my spirit.” This was in spite of the fact that earlier he made mention of “…looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.” Why not directly to God? Why make mention of Jesus at all? It’s almost as if we mention the deity of Jesus that somehow it will get in the way of getting along with the other religions and people who do good works. Getting other religions together wouldn’t allow for this part. I quote you Stephen from your earlier entry “They answer to Him and Him alone and will be accountable for every action and misleading word they speak if they do not repent.” Agreed, but what of those who are led astray? Remember Jimmy Jones? He talked Jesus and salvation as well. Would a discerning believer been able to make a difference? One more voice to be heard? If we do not make our voices heard are we less accountable? Less culpable to what goes on before our very eyes?
    Sorry my brothers and sisters. Too much research in an area that seems so plain to see, that it rips at my soul and makes me run in the other direction. Yet I continue to get pulled back and I’m forced to attempt to put into words what my soul screams to me needs to be heard. My God have mercy on me your unworthy servant. May God continue to care and cover each of you. I pray this in the name of Jesus my Lord my Savior.

    June 25, 2008 at 1:29 am

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  29. I just have to make a comment about something that was said. I think it was Stephen who used the verse about “touch not God’s annointed.”

    I love when people take that verse totally out of context to say that we should not judge ministries or their leaders today.

    That verse is actually God telling david not to KILL Saul. So unless someone out there is planning on killing one of these leaders, which I highly doubt, this verse does not apply.

    Secondly, we have to be able to make sure that what these leaders are teaching lines up with God’s Word or else how do we know whether we ourselves are falling into a trap.

    Be at peace

    Jim Wright
    Word Is True Ministries

    July 12, 2008 at 3:19 pm

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  32. In the year 2002 I received a prophetic dream from the Lord. He told me that there would come a “civil war” in the church. He said it would not be from the New Age but from Pharisees in the church operating out of fear, worry, and envy, people who had not yielded their lives completely to the Lord God. The Lord said this attack would be very big unless we pray. He said it would encompass several lies and not to believe even one of them! He said that it is a trap and a snare, a faith destroyer and designed by the enemy to bring discouragement and a snare.

    I know that many Christians are falling into this snare. You need to repent of judging others according to your own limited understanding. Like the Pharisees of old, you use the Scriptures to condemn the innocent, and think you can do it without any consequences. I like what Stephen said on here. Like him I do not feel there are many here who really want to do anything but justify what they already believe. They have closed their minds.

    A night or two ago the Holy Spirit gave me to know that there have been insults on both sides. Let us seek God’s forgiveness and pray for humility and reconciliation.

    July 21, 2008 at 7:37 pm

  33. sheepyweepy

    So are you saying that those who are weighing false teaching against the Word of God are fearful, worried, envious, and have not yielded their lives to Christ? I have found the exact opposite to be true. Those who are discerning the times and warning about these false teachers are not doing so out of envy or worry, but out of love for the Lord and His precious Word. Do you not know the number one sign of the endtimes is false prophets? The trap and snare is not studying the scriptures to see if these things are so. The trap and snare is the deception brought in to the church by these false prophets.

    Please be warned…don’t rely on personal revelation unless it has already been revealed in the Bible. Everything we need to know has already been written.

    July 21, 2008 at 9:14 pm

  34. I do not “rely” on extra Biblical revelation. But I seek God’s counsel and prayerfully and gratefully consider and thank God for it. I’m very aware of the end times problem of false prophets and wrong doctrines, especially in the contemplative prayer movement and among the New Age. But I see a tendency to jump to conclusions and to bring judgments and accusations against others in the Body who lift up the deity of Christ and are bringing many to salvation. That really does seem wrong.

    July 21, 2008 at 11:15 pm

  35. sheepyweepy

    What did Paul mean by the whole counsel of God in Acts 20?

    27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.

    July 22, 2008 at 12:27 am

  36. I am paraphrasing bec I don’t have the Bible here with me, but Jesus said, You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have life, but you will not come to ME that you may have life.

    Obviously the scriptures are our anchor and guide, but worship and intimacy with Jesus Himself is needed for revelation and wisdom.

    The book of Joel tells us that dreams and visions are for the end times we live in. God never stopped talking. He talks to us through the Logos (written Word) and through the Rhema (revealed Word). Yes, as you said, we need the WHOLE counsl of God, and that includes being filled with the Holy Spirit.

    July 22, 2008 at 2:40 pm

  37. sheepyweepy

    Honesty,

    If you go a few verses back from Acts 20:27, regarding the whole counsel of God, Paul says he testified “of repentance to God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.”(20:21) This is the foundation of the whole counsel of God.

    Not only had Paul given the Christians much encouragement and taught them that which was profitable as he traveled through Macedonia (as we read previously), but if you read further in Acts 20, you will see that this whole counsel of God includes admonition, warning and heartache.

    “For three years I did not cease night or day to admonish every one with tears.”

    (Notice that he also said that he coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. No comment re: Bentley’s Angel of Finance.)

    But in summary, the whole counsel of God is based on repentance and faith. When put into practice it looks like encouragement, admonishing and exhorting to repentance and faith as we speak the Word which is profitable – [All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16)] – in love. It is because we love that we exhort, warn and admonish, from God’s Word.

    The whole counsel of God also means not avoiding verses we don’t like, or choosing only verses we like to suit our beliefs. And of course, the Holy Spirit is our teacher and will give us the boldness to share the Word.

    I am pressed for time, so I will link to these very good articles from Moriel Ministries:

    When God Speaks

    http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/when_god_speaks.htm

    Judge Not

    http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/judge_not.htm

    Thanks for your comments, good questions. By the way, as long as you are at a computer, you are never without a Bible as you can always go to biblegateway.com or various other on-line Bibles.

    July 22, 2008 at 4:49 pm

  38. Thanks. The same advice also applies to yourself, you know that. You also must be willing to embrace the entire counself of God, not choosing certain scriptures to justify your position or what you think you see. Judging other Christians through the lens of incomplete understanding is a serious error so it is better to err on the side of caution rather than bring division and hurt the Body of Christ which causes so much confusion and discouragement to others. This is all I will say but I thank you for the dialogue.

    July 23, 2008 at 11:50 am

  39. edit: misspelled counsel (counself).

    July 23, 2008 at 2:44 pm

  40. sheepyweepy

    Very true. That’s why we need to use the Word of God to judge what we see. It’s the Word that brings division, dividing truth from error.

    For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

    July 23, 2008 at 3:02 pm

  41. Let God judge, not YOU. You can be in error and judge someone wrong very easily and then justify it with the Scriptures. That’s how holy wars start.

    July 24, 2008 at 12:03 am

  42. sheepyweepy

    Honestly, Honesty, have you not been watching what is going on down there in the name of Jesus?

    You are right, God judges whether a person goes to heaven or hell. Those who are in the church are to test everything, encourage and exhort and admonish, and warn the sheep when there are wolves in their midst. This is not a holy war, but it is a beseaching and pleading by many sheep to warn the gullible ones lest they fall of the edge of the precipice. What these poor sheep do with the warnings is up to them. The only war is the one being waged all around us that we cannot see, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    I was so hoping you would read the links I gave you from Moriel. I pray that you will be able to discern truth from error.

    July 24, 2008 at 1:38 am

  43. Amy

    I CAN see both sides of this debate, but after 2 weeks in prayer(though not CONSISTANTLY, I must admit!) over this matter (there was a Bentley discussion w/ ladies @ my church conference and I sought GOD’s opinion)) I am inclined to agree with Stephen… While there IS a difference between judging and pointing out heresy, I do wonder if this debate (after reading ALL replies) is more about an… “I’m right… no, I’m right!” power struggle than it is about fully submitting to our King and asking Him,(& even WANTING to) in humility, if we are actually being deceived, or, if our little, infintisimal brains reject the things we are not comfortable with. For Isaiah 55:9 states “Just as the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts” which means, literally, you could not possibly think like our Creator! We can only glimpse a tiny portion of what God is doing in our lives and the lives of others. That said, we ought to be just as discerning of new leaders as we ought to be of Christians who blog POSSIBLE false accusations/comments that could be interpreted as gossip. (& gossip, I KNOW FOR A FACT- is like a corrosive poison that God abhors for it is intended to defame, strip down and cause division in the church.) Now- please don’t get me wrong- I AM NOT saying this IS gossip – only God knows our hearts- but please fellow Christians, PLEASE OH PLEASE! let us be soooooo careful when we start pointing fingers and crying out “false prophet, false prophet!” for when THE false prophet does come (the antichrist) it may be a “boy who cried wolf” (no pun intended!) syndrome and us believers (& unbelievers for that matter!) will be so desensitized that it will have lost the effect that it should have had in the 1st place! Let’s come together and seek our King’s will and wisdom through prayer instead of debating this topic in a cyberworld where any person commenting could be a “wolf”…eh???

    July 24, 2008 at 2:50 am

  44. sheepyweepy

    Amy,

    This issue is far bigger than some little things we are “uncomfortable” with.

    It is not those who are discerning false teachers who are the corrosive poison. It is false teaching.

    Don’t shoot the watchmen for blowing the trumpet. They are only heeding the words of Jesus:

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Matt. 24:5

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Mark 13:6

    And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
    Luke 21:8

    Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18

    Do you think the anti-christ and the false prophet (they are not one person) will be the only wolves? False prophets are all from the same spirit – the spirit of anti-Christ.

    July 24, 2008 at 3:38 am

  45. You would do better to stick with guarding the flock from where the anti Christ spirit truly is, the New Age or the emerging Church. The ones you are calling anti christ are your brothers and sisters in Christ, soul winning, God seeking, Word loving and preaching men and women who passionately love Jesus. God does not want His Body divided, beloved! Please seek God about this. You seem convinced you are right, so I doubt I can make any further comments.

    July 24, 2008 at 11:29 am

  46. sheepyweepy

    Do you really believe that Todd Bentley is in Christ?

    It’s not that I am right, but rather, that God’s Word is right. We all err, but God’s inerrant Word is our plumbline by which we measure and test all things. And it says that false teachers WILL be among us.

    Thanks for your comments.

    July 24, 2008 at 3:59 pm

  47. Yes I believe Todd is in Christ. Would the devil send someone to the mission field to win thousands to a saving knowledge of Jesus? Todd has brought many to salvations, healings, and deliverance all over the world. If someone is doing these things, no matter if he has purple hair and nose rings everywhere, or a wierd personality, he’s in as far as I am concerned until proven wrong. Hey, I may look wierd to Todd, LOL and probably do.

    Statements to the effect that Todd is of antichrist, is a judgment by those who do not know him personally but condemn the vessel by its outward appearance, misjudging him and misapplying the scriptures.

    I love God’s word and I would not be saved today out of the antichrist New Age system if it were not for that plumbline! False teachers will arise among us, but you will know them because they will deny the doctrines of faith.

    I understand how just to look at Todd or seeing how he does things isn’t what some prefer, (myself included) but who am I to question what God is doing and how? God is testing us whether we will judge the vessel. Todd seeks God and preaches Jesus and the Word of God…I can’t say anything against it. I do believe he is a brother in Christ.

    Thanks for at least considering it.
    blessings on ‘ya.

    July 24, 2008 at 7:30 pm

  48. Robert

    For all of you who believe God is working through this fake prophet.

    If ANY of his healings, exorcisms, prophecies, etc. can be shown to be false, he is a WOLF in sheep’s clothing. This is a high standard, but it is the biblical standard.

    A true prophet i.e. spokesman can act in disobedience oout of false motives (Moses, etc.) but a false prophet can do NOTHING by the power of God because God is not with him.

    Anyone who thinks a true healer kicks people in the stomach who have stomach cancer has some serious problems with judging righteously and loving mercy.

    August 17, 2008 at 6:25 am

  49. sheepyweepy

    Thank you Robert. You are correct.

    As of this week, Todd Bentley has disappeared – he has left the revival, stepped down from his position, and has separated from his wife after having become involved with a female employee. It’s on the Freshfire website for all to see.

    The CNN prophecy was never fulfilled, which makes Todd and his friends ALL false prophets.

    August 17, 2008 at 6:33 am

  50. Eli

    To quote Honesty:

    “””Would the devil send someone to the mission field to win thousands to a saving knowledge of Jesus? Todd has brought many to salvations, healings, and deliverance all over the world.”””

    First of all, Todd STILL is not releasing proof of real healings, all we’re getting on that front is a ton of lip service (any one wonder WHY he’s so closed up about getting the proof out there to us? Does he have something to hide?). Such as the “suposed” fire in the hotel in Seattle several years ago during one of his “visitations”. Suddenly no one that was with him can seem to remember what hotel, or even what town they were in. Some research was done by Christian Research and it was found that there were NO HOTEL FIRES in the Seattle area for those days. NO FIRES. As for those he’s bringing into salvation, are you sure? Only God can judge one’s heart. How do YOU know for sure that these people are not false converts, such as what we are seeing in the PDC. If you think you know the bible so well that you can’t be decieved, then you’re already decieved. Jesus knew the deception would be so huge at the end of the age, that He warned us over and over again. Scripture trumps experience every time without question. What Bentley is “promoting” stinks so bad like new age doctrine, that any decerning Christian versed in scripture should be able to smell it a mile way. And what a sad thing that our watchmen on the wall are being called heresy hunters. Reminds me of how the OT prophets were killed for their prophecies. It is God’s job to judge. But He DID charge us with testing the spirits, being watchmen on the wall. Please learn the difference. I pray you come into the full understanding of Christ and His Word.

    August 18, 2008 at 7:45 pm

  51. MaryM Lovedjc

    The Enemy, knowing mankind longer than we have known ourselves, has many ways to appeal to and stir up our First Fault, Pride. Satan is a master strategist and has used those great destroying forces so evident in these posts and in every aspect of our American society today: Division and Strife. These products of the flesh drive us to grab at the things we feel we must have in order to be secure and safe… the right doctrine, the right understanding, the RIGHT ANSWER (perfection, being like God), and NOW!!! This is NOT the way to go. Instead, we must go to Our Faith (that is Our King, who is reigning now at the Right Hand of the Father RIGHT NOW in heaven), BEFORE we REACT, ANALYZE, CRITICIZE, and draw conclusions, just because we HAVE TO BE RIGHT, RIGHT NOW. I recommend the reading of Tongues of Fire (a book of history of the church mostly, if I recall correctly, BEFORE the Reformation) and a modern book on Comtemplative Prayer… I know, I risk great offense being taken by you by the fact that the books I would recommend on Contemplative prayer were written by a Catholic priest (Thomas Keating). For so MANY Protestant “believers,” who routinely deny that the Catholic church is a Christian church (as though YOU have the only RIGHT (there’s that word again) relationship with Jesus), it is a HUGE problem to read someone like Keating who shares about things beyond your understanding, like devotion to Mary (yes, I know you claim you have the RIGHT answer on this matter too – again, YOU understand better than someone else who actually practices such things AND WHO demonstrates both the character and power of the Lord Jesus Christ). If you persist, however, you will find that Keating, a priest who has been cloistered most of his life and has spent most of his days in prayer and study and nearly all of his hours in the service of others, extremely informative about this Contemplative prayer practice. For the extreme example of someone who had all sorts of supernatural phenomenon surround him while he maintained a record of constant service within his own faith community, examine for yourself the plethora of well-documented biographical information on “Padre Pio,” who suffered the wounds of Christ for 50 years. He was a “stigmatist” born in Italy in 1887. Oh-oh, I can hear that rallying cry again, “That is of the Devil…God would never do that to someone…That’s not what our faith requires… That’s SICK!” (G-Willakers!). When Contemplative prayer and the practice thereof is discussed, it is talking about a practice that helps the “process” of being crucified to Christ. “Divine Union” is about the abiding state some of us are fortunate enough to achieve over, generally speaking, many many years, hours, minutes, of making the pursuit of hrist our first, foremost, and constant goal. Padre Pio suffered for 50 years to manifest the heart of a God, still very much in love with us today, who DIED in order that we might have LIFE TODAY, as well as a final destination of heaven. Padre Pio raised people from the dead, (actually, as he would be the first to say, The Lord Jesus Christ did these things, he was only the “poor vessel” pitied by God enough that he would be able to be used by Him in this marvelous way — (let the PROUD EVANGELILCALS who talk about CLAIMING God’s power match their production with this man’s)), healed the blind (this is documented), saw through men’s souls (generally in the privacy of the confessional – another things rejected by Modern Man who “doesn’t need anyone to come between him and his God, except Jesus… and we don’t need to confess things to someone else…(even though the Bible itself SAYS TO DO IT)), one after another, bled two pints of blood per day, hardly ate anything (he was ordered by the parish priest to eat at least two tablespoons of peas per day…the only time his weight varied from 153 was when he went on a long fast… HE GAINED WEIGHT!) for decades, constantly sought the forgiveness of his brethren at his little church (which he never departed from for decades even though he was seen in the Spirit ALL OVER THE EARTH) for “being so much trouble.” He passed away into the Lord’s arms in the late 1960’s. Padre Pio: Study the records, don’t just read a snippet it to prove to yourself what you already think you know, for goodness’ sake, literally!). Todd Bentley? Who cares? Seriously? Who cares. I believe the “defense” that GodTV made (after the revelation of Todd’s marital/sex life problems) of their choosing to broadcast Lakeland said things very well. None of us our perfect yet; we are being perfected; do we wait until we are perfect to serve? Todd Bentley’s not recruiting you to be a part of his church… he’s offering what he thinks (apparently) God wants him to offer His people. Can our “gifts” and their exercise give rise to circumstances that test our character and can we sometimes fail those tests? You bet. Does it mean the gifts, or the man, or woman, are false prophets? I don’t think so. And while I appreciate all admonishment to be careful, God isn’t controlled by us. He can and often does move in ways that even today, even with all our bible studies, our thousands of churches (and many very very rich churches), even the BEST of us might not anticipate. He doesn’t have to reveal everything to us, in the sense of how precisely he will heal, or touch, or stir our gifts up. People rejecting a vision because the guy is from India wearing a turban remind me of the ignorant prejudice against the man from Samaria (who was HIS neighbor?).Afterall, God spoke through a donkey, did he not? Who today knows what happened to the donkey? It was the Word that came through the donkey that made the donkey of note, not ANYTHING about the donkey itself. BE BLESSED BY OBEYING GOD AND PLEASE PRAY FOR ME THAT I WOULD BE MOVED INTO MORE SACRIFICIAL AND OBEDIENT LIVING. Thank you for this opportunity to share. Read about Padre Pio. You will be blessed. The Lord is SO GOOD!

    June 20, 2009 at 8:30 am

  52. sheepyweepy

    May I refer you to this article from Moriel Ministries which explains how this man whom you admire so much faked his stigmata with acid. See here:

    http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/news/italys-padre-pio-faked-his-stigmata-with-acid

    June 22, 2009 at 2:24 am

  53. abednego

    If one doesn’t enter into the spiritual things, he will remain a powerless newbile. I cringe when I watch people trying to evangelize through enticing words of man’s wisdom. “Let me pull out my graph and show you my religion is right.”… It’s alot more convnincing when you just walk up and heal people. Every christian is able to pray for people and have them healed. I’m surprised when people do not get healed on the spot( many don’t somedays, somedays they all do) Every born again believer can do this too. I’ve watched a 30 second year old child of God heal two people. You don’t feel the power or anything, you just have to know who you are. You’re a child of God and with that comes Holy Ghost power. Even if you’re the most Baptist of Baptists, you still have the power, you just have to try it. You’ll see. Rise up, you powerful child of God.

    October 6, 2009 at 4:14 am

    • sheepyweepy

      Dear Abednego,

      I appreciate your enthusiasm, and your faith, but what does 1 Corinthians 12 say in your Bible? Especially the following verses?

      8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

      9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

      10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

      11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.(…)

      28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

      30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

      The Bible is very clear that, as great as these spiritual gifts from God are, He gives different ones to whom He chooses. Not only that, the greatest of all these spiritual gifts is love. But the greatest gift of all is that God loved the whole world so much He sent His only Son that we might not perish but have eternal life. (You are right – God is not about having the right religion. He is all about love.) And so, the GREATEST miracle to rejoice over is that your name is written in the book of Life.

      Yes, we should pray for people, but we should pray for God’s will to be done, because until we receive our imperishable bodies, and while we live on this earth under the effects of the fall, all of creation groans until the Lord returns – until then, there will be sickness and death. Some may be temporary healed physically for God’s glory, some may not be healed. In the meantime, the greatest gift we can give or receive is His gift of salvation. His Holy Spirit then enables us to walk in His power – you are very right – power to live with joy inspite of our circumstances, while we walk through the valleys, while we suffer various trials and troubles and afflictions. He walks with us through our valleys. He does not always think it’s in our best interest to heal us – if this were so, no Christians would be dying. Sometimes we need to grow into spiritual maturity through pain and difficulties. These things are hard to understand, are they not? There is so much to learn about the depths of God’s great love and mercy.

      May you grow in His grace.

      Thank you for your comment, and God bless you. :)

      October 6, 2009 at 5:18 am

  54. abednego

    Yes, I’m aware of what it says, and thought about it before I made my comment. I say that everyone has the abliity b/c we all have the same Holy Spirit. But I say this more so b/c every single person I have seen step out and faith and pray for the sick and the injured has experienced miracles.
    I just want more people to realize that they are royalty, and powerful children of God. And I guarantee you if you step out and pray for somebody with a sore throat,headache,sinus problems, broken bones, sprained ankle, etc. You will see miracles start to appear. I went out today and saw perfect strangers healed: Laryngitis poof gone, back pain gone, sinus problems gone, one kid couldn’t bend his hand b/c it hurt so bad we prayed for it and he bent his hand in immediatley, then all the pain left. All you have to do is try it. So I challange you child of God, step out and try it. Lemme know what happens. (it’s scary, but worth it)

    October 6, 2009 at 10:17 pm

    • sheepyweepy

      I don’t mean to discredit what you are saying, and I have no doubt in God’s power to heal and answer prayer, but don’t forget that it’s not God’s children who are powerful – only God is powerful – and the purpose of miracles and the exercising of our spiritual gifts is to bring glory to God (the role of the Holy Spirit is always to point to Jesus). God does not give spiritual gifts to his children just so we can try them out, but for the purpose of edifying and building up the body of Christ and making disciples.

      October 7, 2009 at 3:07 am

  55. Pingback: Todd Bentley and other Third Wave Pentecostals teaching extremely dangerous contemplative practices (soaking prayer, third heaven visitations, etc.) « Christians United Against Apostasy

  56. Pingback: LINKS | Christian Research Service

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